Friday, 1 August 2008

Molten STEEL Flowed Under Ground Zero for Months After 9/11

[Originally Posted by George Washington here.]

In response to the numerous reports of molten metal under ground zero, defenders of the official version of 9/11 have tried to argue that it was not steel, but some other kind of metal with a lower melting point.Well, here are what top experts who eyewitnessed the molten metal say:

The structural engineer responsible for the design of the WTC purportedly described fires still burning and molten steel still running 21 days after the attacks (page 3)

A retired professor of physics and atmospheric science said "in mid-October when they would pull out a steel beam, the lower part would be glowing dull red, which indicates a temperature on the order of 500 to 600 °C. And we know that people were turning over pieces of concrete in December that would flash into fire--which requires about 300 °C. So the surface of the pile cooled rather rapidly, but the bulk of the pile stayed hot all the way to December"

The head of a team of scientists studying the potential health effects of 9/11, reported, "Fires are still actively burning and the smoke is very intense. In some pockets now being uncovered, they are finding molten steel"

Hazardous materials experts also stated that, six weeks after 9/11, "There are pieces of steel being pulled out [from as far as six stories underground] that are still cherry red" and "the blaze is so 'far beyond a normal fire' that it is nearly impossible to draw conclusions about it based on other fires" (pay-per-view)

An expert stated about World Trade Center building 7, "A combination of an uncontrolled fire and the structural damage might have been able to bring the building down, some engineers said. But that would not explain steel members in the debris pile that appear to have been PARTLY EVAPORATED in extraordinarily high temperatures" (pay-per-view). Note that evaporation means conversion from a liquid to a gas; so the steel beams in building 7 were subjected to temperatures high enough to melt and evaporate them

According to reporter Christopher Bollyn, Mark Loizeaux, president the world's top demolition company, and Peter Tully, head of a large construction firm, said the following:

Tully told AFP that he had seen pools of “literally molten steel” in the rubble.

Loizeaux confirmed this: “Yes, hot spots of molten steel in the basements,” he said, “at the bottom of the elevator shafts of the main towers, down seven levels.

”The molten steel was found “three, four, and five weeks later, when the rubble was being removed,” he said. He confirmed that molten steel was also found at WTC 7, which mysteriously collapsed in the late afternoon.

Here's what eyewitness firefighters say:

New York firefighters recalled in a documentary film, "heat so intense they encountered rivers of molten steel"

A NY firefighter described molten steel flowing at ground zero, and said it was like a "foundry" or like "lava"

According to a member of New York Air National Guard's 109th Air Wing, who was at Ground Zero from September 22 to October 6, "One fireman told us that there was still molten steel at the heart of the towers' remains. Firemen sprayed water to cool the debris down but the heat remained intense enough at the surface to melt their boots"

As late as five months after the attacks, in February 2002, firefighter Joe O'Toole saw a steel beam being lifted from deep underground at Ground Zero, which, he says, "was dripping from the molten steel"

Here's what other eyewitnesses say:

A public health advisor who arrived at Ground Zero on September 12, said that "feeling the heat" and "seeing the molten steel" there reminded him of a volcano

An employee of New Jersey's Task Force One Urban Search and Rescue witnessed "Fires burn[ing and molten steel flow[ing] in the pile of ruins still settling beneath her feet"

A reporter with rare access to the debris at ground zero "descended deep below street level to areas where underground fires still burned and steel flowed in molten streams"

An Occupational Safety and Health Administration Officer at the Trade Center reported a fire truck 10 feet below the ground that was still burning two weeks after the Tower collapsed, "its metal so hot that it looked like a vat of molten steel"

A witness said “In the first few weeks, sometimes when a worker would pull a steel beam from the wreckage, the end of the beam would be dripping molten steel”

A NY Department of Sanitation spokeswoman said "for about two and a half months after the attacks, in addition to its regular duties, NYDS played a major role in debris removal - everything from molten steel beams to human remains..."

The fact that there was molten steel under ground zero for months after 9/11 is very odd, especially since firefighters sprayed millions of gallons of water on the fires and applied high-tech fire retardants.

See also this.
**Readers please note: the first comment appearing under the article here is from a serial disinformation pest named Arthur Scheuerman.

This man has a long record of putting up false and distorted arguments in order to "debunk" evidence. However, a careful examination of his claims always reveals his explanations to be in conflict with the facts about what was observed. You will note that his primary tactic, evident in his reply, is to miscast the evidence at hand in order to downplay the significance of various critical observations. A man with his fire engineering background(!) should know better than to put forward such gross misrepresentations- lest we conclude that his actions here represent a deliberate attempt to deceive.

To Mr Scheuerman: Your claim that the rubble pile may have generated 900 degree celsius temperatures, which is required to melt the steel as observed- and it occurring under all three(!) collapsed buildings- is clearly ridiculous. You claimed that: "These [underground] fires can last for days and the heat can become intense and can heat any steel in proximity to the fire until the steel is glowing red, orange or yellow hot." (Please show me examples of yellow/orange hot steel being removed from other fire affected buildings.) As you might know, the sort of extraordinary heat required to cause such catastrophic melting requires a much better environment than could have existed in the rubble pile. We are talking about FURNACE type conditions in the days subsequent to the fire. Sir, the pile of smouldering ruins was obviously lacking in the fuel and air requirements to match what you propose- especially when we are talking about 900 degree celsius conditions ! The gulf between what you imply here, and reality, is enormous.

Mr Scheuerman, the testimony cited in the post above clearly shows there were tons of molten steel in the rubble. You're doing the country a huge disservice with your continued debunking attacks. You are smart enough to know that most of what you write cannot possibly be true- especially your claims that the Molten Steel photographed in the rubble might be lead or aluminium ! Heated to a yellow/orange colour, lead or aluminium is LIQUID, not plastic. If you were going to pick up yellow/orange lead or aluminium you would need a bucket, not the grapple that was used in the clean up operation. This basic error of yours, one of many, leads me to suspect you are not being honest to the public.

For a more thorough refutation of Mr Scheuerman's disinformation rant please see my comment directly below his.

[Posted at the SpookyWeather blog, August 1st, 2008.]


Arthur Scheuerman said...

After any fire in which a building collapses, there often remain deep seated, pockets of fire deep within the rubble pile These pockets of fire sometimes cannot be oooled by water streams because of their being covered by debris. Air is sometimes drawn up from the bottom of the pile and feeds these inaccessible fires with air. These fires can last for days and the heat can become intense and can heat any steel in proximity to the fire until the steel is glowing red, orange or yellow hot. These pockets of fire are common at burning building collapses and in no way evidence that that explosives or thermite were used to demolish the buildings. These fires are similar to blacksmith fires where air is blown into the charcoals by a bellows to raise the temperature of the fire to heat a piece of steel or iron. The blacksmith can tell how hot the steel is by its color and can tell when the steel is soft enough to work it with a hammer The deep seated fires which occur in the rubble are supplied with air because natural convection currents. Heated air rises because of its bouyancy and is replaced by cool air drawn in from the bottom and sides of the fire. This air flow can become rapid because of the high temperatures developed. The more air drawn in the hotter the fire becomes and the increased temperature increases the convection currents which draws in more air. I am convinced that temperatures of over 2000 deg F. can easily be developed. This temperature, however, is still incapable of melting steel.
These deep seated fires often have to be dug out by hand tools, back hoes or grapplers in order to expose the burning material for extinguishment. It is common to hold off hitting the fire with water until it is fully exposed in order to prevent the great amount of steam that would be created from obscuring the work area until the fire is fully exposed and can be extinguished. This is what is happening in the picture of a grappler pulling out a piece of glowing hot steel from the debris pile so often described as molten steel. Such fires are incapable of melting steel unless they are supplied with pure oxygen.

Much has been made of the presence of molten metal in the debris pile after the collapse. Presumably this molten metal was somehow thought to be connected to explosions or thermite charges, but there were Uninterrupted Power Supply (UPS) battery rooms on some floors of the Towers and Building 7. These battery rooms supplied continuous battery power to computers if the electricity failed for any reason. These batteries contained tons of lead which melts at low temperatures [327 C (621 F)]. The heat from the deep seated fires in the debris pile could easily have melted this lead or the aluminum from the plane which were probably the metals that were seen flowing through the pile and described as molten steel. NIST reported UPS in the 13th floor of Building 7 and the 81st floor of Tower 2. There were also quantities of lead, tin, silver and even gold used in the computer circuit boards.

Additionally the EPA reported over 400 different chemicals in the dust and debris. These chemicals could easily be assembled conceptually to propose any type of chemical reaction imaginable including thermite reactions. In addition thermite reactions are rapid and wouldn't last the hours or days at which times the molten metal was observed. Thermite is hard to control and can’t be held against the columns because it would burn down through any material used to support it against the columns.

Pure oxygen is used in oxyacetylene torches to actually ignite burn and melt the steel when cutting. These torches were used to help clear the debris pile during search and recovery operations. A slag of melted and re-solidified steel and Ferrous oxide is formed on the opposite side of the cut. This slag formation was erroneously reported to be evidence of cutter charges having been used to sever the columns. Small molten pieces of glowing steel cool into spheres as they fly out from the cut

SpookyPunkos said...

Mr Scheuerman:

Your suggestion that hot forge-like temperatures were achieved in the rubble pile- causing steel beams to heat and become red, then orange and then yellow, is utterly preposterous. Show me examples of molten steel recovered from other building fire sites in days or weeks following. By putting forward such a blatant (and false) contention you are attempting to downplay the significance of the evidence. Melted Steel beams do not represent a "mundane" occurrence as you attempt to portray. Moreover, this unique molten steel phenomena occurred independently in three (!) separate locations (WTC 1, 2 & 7) as evidenced by photographs, eyewitness reports and NASA thermal imaging. Fires that can reach the 900 degrees celsius mark (needed to make steel turn yellow/orange) are indicative of furnaces and explosive incendaries, not smouldering rubble piles.

The worst claim you make is that the molten metal in the rubble pile may be battery lead. However, hot lead at a yellow/orange colour is a liquid and would not be in the plastic state seen. Lead melts while it is still silvery in colour. This basic error casts doubt on your whole agenda. Surely you know that it is not lead. Your other suggestions that the molten metal may be due to aircraft aluminium or computer circuit boards is similarly ridiculous- especially the latter proposition.

Your contention that because the EPA reported 400 different types of chemicals in the pile we might expect to see some sort of thermite (steel melting) reaction in any event, and by implication, at three separate rubble pile sites (WTC 1, 2 & 7), strains credibility once more. Your whole argument here is nothing but desperate conjecture.

You also make a claim against thermite being the cause of the molten steel since thermite-type reactions "wouldn't last hours or days." Be that as it may, this does not negate the fact that tons of molten steel was found at WTC ground zero in the hours and days following the attacks, and that evidence of a thermite reaction was nevertheless discovered on steel samples originating from the site. We do not know exactly what type of reaction took place, but samples taken from the site reveal that it did include some, as yet to be determined, variation of the thermite reaction.

You also implied that the data, indicating there were thermite-type reactions, was probably due to contamination with other building materials- even though the standard being applied here is the same for similar forensic investigations dealing with arson that might be similarly contaminated.

Furthermore, you do not address the fact that thermite signatures were directly sourced from previously molten iron rich micro spheres that were common throughout the concrete dust- not from mixed up debris. Moreover, the thermite signature gained from the microspheres also negated their (the spheres) origin as being from clean-up-crew oxyacetylene cutting as you propose. Crucially, some of these metal samples were collected on the day of the attacks away from the WTC site and BEFORE these operations were underway. You should already know this.

The simple fact that there were MANY iron microspheres in the dust samples- dust that largely consisted of pulverised concrete- is, by itself, indicative of explosive forces. These spheres did not simply jump off the beams during the collapse without some strong, and superhot force in action. The very fact that the spheres were microscopic in size is exactly what we would expect from high energy explosive forces rather than that associated with a low velocity crushing force (a simple collapse).

Mr Scheuerman you have put forward a very devious "argument", but not one that can stand up to any real scrutiny. To accept what you say one has to throw all logic, reason, and scientific fact out the window.